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04 Dec 2008, Time:01:09
You are here: Wiltshire County Council > Home > Council > Towards One Council > Spring 2008 Town & Parish Council Meet and Greet Sessions > Parish Meet & Greet, Marlborough Town Hall
Parish Meet & Greet, Marlborough Town Hall
Q. Hearing a lot about the benefits of a unitary council – not convinced though – most were against unification. Got four district councils currently doing a good job – not impressed by county council however. Delegation idea will only work if new council is open and transparent and really listens to town and parish councils. Previous experience of consultation is that people are consulted, but county council then takes decision which ignores that consultation.
- No point in re-examining the arguments for unification. Unification is definitely going ahead. You say most people were against the unification – but there are many in districts and parishes who support the unification. Most local businesses are in favour of unification.
- If county council services are inadequate please let council executives know. Will take action if possible. Wiltshire is under-resourced – means can't always deliver what people would like.
- Discussions about delegated services will be open and transparent. No obligation to take on delegated services. If don't like the terms of proposed service level agreement don't have to sign it.
- Not about council controlling town and parish councils – about devolving services down to the appropriate level. Some services have to be county-wide such as education. Others may work better if devolved to local level – for example grass cutting which is currently done in patches at different times by different bodies. Local town and parish councils may be able to take over grass cutting and do it more consistently and efficiently.
Q. Is the budget for the unitary council going to be bigger or smaller than the sum of the budgets for the four district councils and the county council? Do you envisage financial benefits from economies of scale for unified council?
- Won't be a change in terms of levels of expenditure. Government has given assurance there will be no change in terms of grant settlement over the next 3 years.
- Whilst money coming in won't be different to what separate councils would have received, do envisage savings through economies of scale and new structure. Won't see the savings in April 2009 – but should see the savings over the following 2 ½ years. Making savings in the support services to channel back into front-line services. Won't need 5 heads of finance and heads of legal and so on – reducing bureaucracy in order to increase front-line social care, road repair, leisure etc.
Q. Talking about lengthy discussions with town and parish councils regarding delegation of services. When will it actually happen – when will delegation agreements be signed? Won't delegation of services lead to 'patchwork quilt' of services across the county creating pressures and cost implications? Will it undermine Wiltshire Council's ability to carry out services in areas that don't take on delegation?
- Agreements for delegation of services will be considered each financial year - envisage it as an ongoing process. Review agreements to see if they are working. Town and parish councils don't have to take on services now - could join at any time – continual process.
- Whether delegation to some areas could jeopardise service delivery to remaining areas is something that would have to be considered when deciding whether or not to delegate particular services.
- If town and parish councils prefer to shape service programmes rather than take on the delegated services themselves that would be OK. May prefer to follow the parish stewardship route. Lots of different options for letting priorities be determined at the local level.
Q. Don't see why unification should happen. District councils work very well at the moment – county council is the inefficient one. District councils all had contingency funds whereas county council is in debt. Phoned county council – person taking enquiry didn't even know where Vale of Pewsey was and couldn't follow instructions regarding map. Told person on phone was new member of staff – taking on lots of extra staff. Increasing rather than cutting costs – bigger government is not better government – big organisation can't be as efficient as smaller separate organisations.
- County council budget very different to district council budgets. County council spends around £600 million a year – much bigger figures. Has to deliver capital projects like schools and roads and transport. Government delivers this by giving county council a borrowing requirement - then council receives the revenue to support that borrowing. Isn't in debt – just has mortgages.
- Don't accept bigger can't be as efficient.
- Don't know when you phoned or who you spoke to. However county council definitely not increasing staffing levels. Have been managing the numbers down for some time.
Q. Got deep concerns about the changes. Documents promote parish councils earning 'quality council' status and 'hallmark status'. Seems like increasing the bureaucracy – more hoops to jump through - Area Boards and partnerships as well. Remember town and parish councillors are unpaid – council planning to make savings by pushing more work on to unpaid town and parish councillors. Most people having to balance this work with a day job unless retired or unemployed. Personally had to leave work early to come to this meeting – not listening to town and parish councillors – evening meeting should be eight o'clock. Unhappy with Boundary Commission proposals – don't know anyone who was in favour of the new boundary proposals but they were put forward anyway.
- Asked when you wanted the meeting – told evening therefore arranged it for 6:30-8:30. If you want it later then say so – executives happy to hold it later – work late into the evening anyway.
- Not making the savings through exploiting unpaid work of town and parish councils. Savings are from streamlining and rationalisation and economies of scale. No obligation on town and parish councils to take on the delegated services – only an offer – will continue to perform the services if town and parish councils don't want to take them on.
- Had to take a reasonable view about numbers that unitary councillors should represent to present to Boundary Commission. County councillors currently represent about 8,000-9,000 people and district councillors represent around 1,500 – 2,000. Proposed having 98 new unitary members to each represent 3,700. Everyone's views and objections were passed on to the Boundary Commission. Boundary Commission can make its own decision – may not accept county council proposals.
Q. Not against 3,700 electorate for each division – but against the way that areas have been aggregated to reach those figures. Have grouped unlike parts together – rural villages like Kington Langley lumped together with parts of Chippenham – won't allow for proper representation of the people.
- Not true that rural villages have been put together with people from the towns except for part of Warminster town. Kington Langley is together with villages of Sutton Benger, Kington St Michael, Langley Burrell, Seagry, Stanton St Quinton and part of Cepen Park.
Q. Do you intend to keep funding the leisure centres in Kennet at the current levels? Lost lots of local leisure centres – will we lose more? Kennet had £25 million for the leisure centres – that will go.
- Nothing in submission about getting rid of or reducing leisure centre funding.
- Not true that local leisure centres are being lost – most haven't gone.
- Can't know for sure what new council will do as don't know who will be on the new council – Jane Scott would personally be strongly opposed to reducing leisure services. Leisure provision important to tackle health issues like obesity, lung and heart diseases etc. Unitary authority should have opportunity to improve services – join up related services like youth and leisure – have director of health.
Q. Existing district councils work well – why destroy that? Don't know what the unitary council will do – unknown quantity – unproven and untested.
- Yes it is untested – is new organisation. However won't just be Wiltshire County Council with districts grafted on. Wiltshire County Council knows they don't do everything best – some things district councils do better. Looking to adopt best practice for new unitary council – bring whole county up to the standards of the best.
- Got to look at challenges to be faced in the next 20 years. Number of people over 85 will double. Already pressures on social services and education – spending on schools in Wiltshire is below the national average and social services eligibility criteria are considered too high by many. Rural county with transport difficulties – tenders for transport contracts up 25%. Highways maintenance costs are rising. Amount of waste is increasing. Going to cost millions. Discretionary services will be squeezed if can't get more efficient.
- One of the highest performing councils is the unitary council of East Riding. Is comparable to Wiltshire – largely rural. Don't just dismiss the arguments for unitary council being better – can work well, should be better able to meet the challenges ahead.
Q. Saying services simply aren't sustainable in the medium to long term?
- Got increasing demand and increasing costs. Got to rethink the way we provide services. Take waste for example. 10 years ago trend on waste was unsustainable – running out of landfill and facing EU fines. Took action – recycling rate of 40% currently one of the best in the country and invested in two major contracts to divert waste from landfill.
- Numbers of old people set to rise dramatically – good that life expectancy is high but poses a big challenge to the public sector. Got to arrange social care more efficiently – join up the services between health and social care – make things consistent. Talk openly to people and their families – discuss what services will and won't be available in 20 years time.
Q. If services can't be sustained will more and more fall on the town and parish councils? Can you guarantee the funding will be there?
- Not shunting services on to town and parish councils. Delegating services is only an offer – don't have to take it up. Some services are strategic services – won't want to delegate these type of services.
Q. Can we afford the unitary authority? Will involve a lot of bureaucratic nonsense – extra work and cost. Rural county – got to minimise costs on council tax payer.
- Can't afford not to do it!
Q. Are there legal restrictions on which services you can delegate down to town and parish councils – will there be 'cherry picking' of services on proposed list? Could there be delegation in relation to a local school?
- Are some legal restrictions. Can't delegate services for schools – schools have their own funding machine – not legal or practicable to delegate. Other big strategic services can't be delegated – for instance social services criteria got to be consistent – would face legal challenges to decisions otherwise – judicial reviews. In other cases depends on practicability – for example highways maintenance requires a lot of expensive equipment – impractical to invest in the machinery.
- Services mentioned on the list not exhaustive – reflects what people have asked to be able to take on. No obligation to take on any of the services.
Q. Believe all the districts except for Salisbury sold their district housing stock. What is going to happen with Salisbury's housing stock? Would bring in a lot of money if sold.
- True that other areas transferred housing stock to housing associations. Need the consent of the majority of tenants to any sale though. Had a vote around 18 months ago – Salisbury tenants were against the housing stock being transferred so won't be sold. Would bring in a lot of money which was why it was considered, but tenants said no. There are legal limits on how soon the decision could be reconsidered. No plans at the moment to change it – nothing on the agenda.
Q. Planning is always a primary concern – please explain what will be happening with planning under the unitary council after April 2009?
- Area Boards won't be involved with development control. Will be a minimum of 4 development control committees across the county.
- Got a group examining how it should work at the moment – each of the district councils involved - being led by district. Currently everyone does things a bit differently – got to decide what works best and how it can be harmonised. Will then put recommendations forward to the Implementation Executive – expect proposals end of June or July.
Q. Is there any likelihood of the Wiltshire county boundary being moved with the boundary review work? Will there be more cross-border working – better more holistic approach to planning and development strategies with Swindon for example?
- Wiltshire keen to avoid boundary creep. Asked minister about this specifically and he confirmed would not be changing Wiltshire's borders.
- One of the key factors behind one council proposal was to defend against encroachment of neighbouring city regions. Felt threatened by Swindon to the East, BANES to the west and Southampton to the south – Swindon made clear they had designs on North Wiltshire. Look at situation with other counties like Cheshire, Devon and Bedfordshire – will have changes imposed on them. Government has made it clear it doesn't want two-tier local government – finds it difficult to work with. Wiltshire has taken steps to control own destiny – create stronger unitary authority to hold back the city regions.
- Do work together with Swindon on strategic planning issues. Have joint meetings on spatial planning etc. - will continue cross-border working.
Q. Problems with traffic through the villages. Everything trying to get round Swindon – rat runs through the villages on roads designed for horses and carts! Swindon expanding – Swindon arguing one way whilst North Wiltshire argues the other.
- Swindon actually arguing against the government – government trying to push housing on people without the money for roads and infrastructure to go with it. Similar issues with housing in Salisbury - pushing houses without the accompanying infrastructure. Wiltshire supporting Swindon to oppose housing without infrastructure. Otherwise end up with dormitory towns – live in Wiltshire but work elsewhere - get the rat runs and commuting. Want to keep people and jobs local.
Q. Concerned about commitment to partnerships and integration of Area Boards. Got Tidworth Community Area Partnership (TCAP) already. TCAP does good work – already got local community decision making - how will Area Board fit in? Also concerned people only attend meetings because of their job – not because they have an interest.
- Are working on how to align the Area Boards with the existing partnerships.
- Have had meetings evaluating the partnerships – have different strengths and weaknesses. TCAP is effective - very good at getting things done - but perhaps not the most inclusive.
Q. Have had partnerships in operation for many years. Won't there be an overlap with the Area Boards – how will they interlace?
- Pattern of partnerships has varied across the districts. Marlborough partnership operates rather like Area Boards are envisaged as working. Will have to discuss how things should be split. Problem at the moment is can't make decisions at partnership meetings - have to pass everything up the chain of command. Want to change this.
Q. Concerned about the idea of Community Area Partnerships setting agenda for Area Boards. Will end up with conflict between elected town and parish councillors and non-elected partnership people.
- Community Area Partnerships (CAPs) one voice at the Area Boards. Area Boards not intended to be like local government meetings with rigid agendas - should be open to all – hear all voices in community. Interested members of public who are neither town and parish councillors nor involved in CAPs should be able to attend and have their views heard. Need to make this clear to people. Can't do true 'pilot scheme' yet as don't have unitary councillors – but are doing development work to see how it functions in two trials.
Q. How much time do you envisage councillors having to devote to the Area Boards? Will they have access to the experience and expertise needed for local decision making?
- Envisage Area Boards being the main part of unitary councillor role in the future. Currently councillors who are not on the cabinet feel they don't have much influence – just Scrutiny. Obviously Scrutiny will still be important, but should spend much more time at Area Boards in future and less time in Trowbridge. Delegating real decision making powers to the local level.
- Need to get local service managers at the meetings. They should be able to advise on whether something can or can't be done and answer questions. Will be council directors attending as well as individual service managers – bringing everyone together to solve common problems.
Q. Heard there were going to be two Area Board trials in North Wiltshire – had expected them to get going in March / April – still not started though so when will they happen?
- Has taken longer than hoped to get started. Needed secondments of county and district council officers – difficult when got to keep services going. Confident that the trials will start by beginning of September.
Q. Area Boards will just be 'talking shops' as far as town and parish councillors are concerned – can only make comments – don't have vote – Area Board meetings will be remote. Why delegate to Area Boards – why not to town and parish councils?
- Proposing to delegate services to individual town and parish councils. Different to delegating decision making powers to unitary councillors at Area Boards.
- Area Board meeting in Marlborough shouldn't feel remote.
- Planning to have unitary authority cabinet members attend the meetings to keep it joined up.
- Won't be a talking shop – lots of people have brought that accusation – can only really disprove it once see it in action.
Q. If unitary authority cabinet members will attend the meetings will they have the right to veto decisions?
- No. Will just be there to answer questions and take things back to the unitary authority. They won't be the local members from the relevant area either.
Q. What will the budget be for the Area Boards – where will it come from?
- Three different aspects. Firstly budget from the five separate authorities will still be there to support it. Also, all of the districts except one had agreements for budget for community areas – will take the highest one of these and apply it to all. Thirdly, communities will have the decision making power over budget spending – decide how best to spend it at community level. Make decisions about youth and library budget – library opening hours etc. - as long as stay within overall budget and policy constraints.
Q. What will the membership of the Area Boards be? Mentioned unelected representatives of groups like Health, Police and Fire Services being invited – will it be reciprocal? If making decisions about libraries and so on shouldn't librarian be there?
- Officers are never members. Unitary councillors are members with vote – town and parish councillors and chair of CAP are standing members without vote – also invite appropriate representatives of Police, Health Services etc. Won't be reciprocal.
Q. Town and parish councillors currently have strong links with the district councillors. Concerned that unitary councillors won't attend town and parish council meetings to the same degree. Broadening community involvement with the Area Boards initiative – but marginalising town and parish councillors' influence at the same time? If parish councillors don't attend Area Boards they will get marginalised.
- These issues are raised at each Meet and Greet session. Is a dilemma – got to find balance. Want to have people able to participate in the local decision making without undermining the decision making power of elected town and parish councillors.
- A lot will depend upon the skill and judgement of future unitary councillors. They have got to balance the different opinions and influences.
- Will still be as much of an expectation that unitary councillors go to town and parish council meetings as there is now. Jane Scott is district and county councillor – attends town and parish council meetings regularly. Should be able to offer more complete service to town and parish councils in the future – easier to get all the relevant people together to sort problems out.
- Agree that all parish councillors should have the chance to attend the Area Board meetings and avoid being marginalised. Against restricting it to only a couple of representatives of town and parish councils - should all be able to come if they want to.
Q. Concerned about the people side of the unification changes. Could be a threat to success. Making efficiency gains by streamlining service. Means losing jobs – or if can't take jobs away then got to find other things for people to do – creating more clutter. What is staff morale like? How is the change process within the councils being managed?
- Are having face to face meetings with all staff at sessions similar to this. Answering all their questions. People want to know if they will still have a job. In most cases their jobs will be the same in April 2009 – front line services not changing very much – it is management structure that is changing.
- Staff understand the pressures – understand got to make things more efficient or else cut services. A lot of county and district officers are upbeat about the changes – recognise the potential for improvements and better services. Are getting key people together and working on future plans.
- Understand the potential problems of disruption. Discussed this in the Implementation Executive. Avoiding unnecessary upheaval – proposed new structure for April 2009 is conventional – recognises that five organisations are becoming one but deliberately avoids revolutionary changes at this stage.
Q. Losing a lot of experienced people in Kennet District Council – how is that being counteracted? Can't afford to lose them.
- Neighbouring authorities have been unfriendly – taking advantage of insecurity to poach key persons. Are taking steps to counteract it though. Want to reduce uncertainty as soon as possible. Implementation Executive has approved plans for early integration of critical teams – should reduce the uncertainty and loss of good staff.
Q. Will have elections just after the unification happens – don't know who the unitary councillors will be. Bad idea having massive change and then elections with completely new people?! Loss of local democracy getting rid of local district councillors.
- How else can it be done? Got to have elections - would have had elections even without unification. Likely that more than half of the unitary councillors will be existing district councillors. Already got lots of 'twin-hatters' who are county and district councillors – lack of people willing to be councillors – unitary councillors won't all be completely different people.
Q. What is happening with the Regional Assembly?
- Regional Assembly transferring to Regional Development Agency in 2010. In absence of Regional Assembly government is looking at how they can influence the Regional Development Agencies. Twenty four councillors drawn from the South West region. Can local government influence it and can non-urban areas get a better deal than they do at the moment? Will be a challenge. Government focused on economic growth in urban areas. If going to be a small strategic group working with the RDA may be better able to take on big urban areas like Bristol and Plymouth.
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