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04 Dec 2008, Time:00:40
You are here: Wiltshire County Council > Home > Council > Towards One Council > Spring 2008 Town & Parish Council Meet and Greet Sessions > Parish Meet and Greet Session, Corn Exchange, Devizes
Parish Meet and Greet Session, Corn Exchange, Devizes
Q. Various district councils have already passed a lot over to town and parish councils – for example litter picking and public conveniences. Often the town and parish councils are funding it themselves. How will this be dealt with by the unitary council? Unfair if some parishes now take on delegated services with funding when others already doing that service.
- Aware of the variation. Will be inheriting a patchwork of different arrangements. Will have to be a process of levelling up to achieve equality across the whole county. Will take time though to sort out all the anomalies.
Q. Many small parishes won't have the capacity and capability to take on delegated services. Parish councillors are often volunteers who have a day job – finite capacity. Parish Councils just not able to look at taking over services like taxis.
- In many cases it won't be viable for small parish councils to take on delegated services – but there are some larger parishes and town councils who do have the resources and capacity. Frequently told town/parish councils could perform the same services better than the county council for the same money – or could provide it more efficiently for less money.
- Absolutely no compulsion for small parishes to take up the offer – simply an opportunity. Unitary council will continue to provide the services to those who don't take on the delegated services themselves.
- Could also consider getting together with other parish councils – similar to the situation in parts of Europe where communes work together to deliver what they couldn't manage alone.
Q. Won't it have a divisive effect if people are receiving different services or levels of service to those in neighbouring parishes?
- Possibly, but there is already a lot of variation anyway. Not a new idea – just formalising it. It would be wrong not to make the offer to those who are in a position to take advantage of it.
Q. Could you provide more information than currently appears in the suggested list of services for delegation. For example would need to know more about what is involved with Tree Preservation Orders before deciding whether to take it on – extra paragraph for each of the listed items? Indicative costs would also be useful.
- Yes. Will provide more information. Could also include indicative costs.
Q. If a town & parish council takes on delegated powers for tree preservation orders, for example, and someone refuses to comply with the order what happens? Might have to start litigation – who would do that?
- These are the sort of details that will have to be worked out. Could have enforcement separate from providing the service.
Q. It could be a painful process trying to negotiate the service agreement between the parish council and the unitary council – previous experience suggests it would be.
- Want to make it as simple and easy as possible. Will sort out a basic model before finalising the contract terms. Hoping to have a fairly standard contract.
Q. Are currently cases where town councils are getting together with local parish councils to ask for help with certain services. Do you envisage area agreements between groups of town and parish councils in the future?
- No problem with exploring delegation agreements with several town and parish councils acting together.
Q. What will happen with the leisure centre in Devizes?
- Nothing in the one council submission about getting rid of any leisure centres. However will look at the situation across the county and rationalise services where necessary. Will be a long-term process though – no immediate changes.
Q. Are currently agreements between the district council and town / parish councils to contribute to the cost of certain services. What will happen with these agreements? If there will no longer be an organisation known as Kennet District Council surely the agreements will fail? Will it be made equal across the county – not fair that some town councils pay more than others?
- The contracts entered into by the district councils will transfer to the unitary council. Would be impossible situation if all the contracts and legal agreements suddenly became void. Legalities have been dealt with to make sure there is an automatic transfer.
- Have to honour the terms of the current agreements. Can't just equalise everything overnight. Would be looking at longer term harmonisation though. Should be fairer in the long run.
Q. What will be happening with planning under the new system? Have heard that town and parish councils will no longer be consulted. Will area boards be involved in planning? Will it all become centralised in Trowbridge?
- Not true that town & parish councils will no longer be consulted – is a legal requirement.
- Development control is a difficult issue – currently got representatives from all 5 organisations working out the new procedures. Currently everyone does it a bit differently. Looking at things like when to hold meetings, how call ins should be made, possible cooling off periods for decisions delegated to officers.
- In future will have minimum of four development control committees across the county. Won't be carried out by the area boards – need specially trained councillors. Not suitable for area boards – but won't all end up in Trowbridge either.
Q. What will happen with minor planning matters – will these be delegated downwards?
- Under government paper minor planning matters will be dealt with differently – changing the system – taking away the local involvement with this altogether.
Q. What is the correct terminology – Community Area Boards or Area Boards? Understood it was the latter but the documents refer to “Community Boards”.
- Were originally going to call them Community Area Boards and Community Area Partnerships. However was considered that acronym CAB would be too easily confused with the Citizen's Advice Bureau. Paperwork not been updated properly – should now be Area Boards and Community Area Partnerships.
Q. Document describing area boards mentions representatives of town and parish councils on the area boards – will also invite representatives from police, fire brigade and health services. Town & parish councillors are elected unlike the others – how many town & parish councillors will be invited or able to attend? Can everyone come?
- Area board meetings will be open meetings. Anyone should be able to come including members of the public. All town and parish councillors will be invited – won't all come but could if they wanted to.
Q. As “standing members” of the area boards will town and parish councillors have voting rights? Wording implies they will.
- No. Thought long and hard about this but decided only unitary councillors should be able to vote. Town and parish councillors should attend and make their views heard – but can't give them voting rights. Analogous situation to county or district councillor coming to a town or parish council meeting now – could join and and express opinion but shouldn't be able to vote.
- Will change the wording to make clear that town & parish councillors won't have voting rights.
Q. Won't you end up with a lot of variation across the county if area boards are free to make different decisions about spending and priorities?
- Yes. Whole point is to give local communities greater freedom to make decisions specific to their local communities – reflect local priorities and needs. Want flexibility and variation. Will be some restraints though – agreed budget and strategic policy. Won't be able to change things like education and social care which will need to be consistent throughout.
Q. When will you be telling prospective unitary councillors more about the new role? When will the public be told more about the changes? Need to make it very easy for the public to understand.
- Deliberately held back whilst waiting for the orders to be passed and the outcome of the judicial review and appeal to become clear. Are planning campaigns and advertisements to tell people about the changes now it is definitely going ahead. Will make sure it is kept simple without lots of jargon.
- Group of district leaders working on descriptions of unitary councillor role at the moment. Will be holding open sessions in the county for potential candidates to find out more about the new role. Open day end of autumn. Political parties will probably be carrying out similar exercises.
Q. Will the area board and partnerships meetings be held in the evenings – if not it would preclude a lot of people from attending?
Yes – meetings will probably be early evening. Want the public to be able to attend – most people have day jobs. May be some executive meetings of the area boards in the day time as well in order to get the job done.
Q. Why is the name being changed from Wiltshire County Council to Wiltshire Council – unfortunate abbreviation to WC!?
- Wanted to have a change of name as it will be a new organisation. County Council will be the continuing authority, but not the same organisation. Aware of the potential embarrassment with the abbreviation to WC – but hasn't been a problem for other organisations like Wiltshire College.
Q. Losing a lot of staff in Kennet District Council – so short staffed in some areas having to get private contractors to do some of the work. What can be done to end the uncertainty and the staff crisis?
- Staff retention is an issue in all five organisations at the moment. Unfortunate that the uncertainty has dragged on for so long – but couldn't move forwards until the judicial review was settled and the orders had been passed by the government. Hoping to pick up the pace now.
- Paper setting out the top level structure going to the Implementation Executive for approval tomorrow. Also a second paper seeking approval for getting a lot of teams together early well in advance of the April 2009 transfer. This early integration should also help plug some gaps in resources.
- Keen to end the uncertainty as soon as possible. Let people know the situation with their job. Are sending out the message that a lot of the jobs and people will stay the same. Most areas not changing – especially at the operational level. It is the management structure above that will be changing the most.
Q. Are the savings supposed to be £18 million or £16 million – thought it was £16 million previously?
If the move to a unitary council will cost £20 million maximum then won't it end up £2 million in the red?
- Figure was revised from £16 million to £18 million.
- The £18 million is not a one off saving – will continue year on year – won't end up in the red.
Q. How will it be possible for the new council to deliver services that are both high quality and low cost?
- Will be building on the best practices from all the separate organisations. Can learn from one another. Will create a more efficient service based on lean principles. Will have multi-disciplinary teams working together in more efficient joined-up way. Also remember savings are to be realised over time – not immediately in the first year.
Q. At the moment the system is very slow and inefficient – how will that change?
- Area boards should address this. Will have delegated powers to make decisions at the local level without having to refer things back up the chain of command. Area boards will get everyone together to sort things out – have officers there and discuss matters with them directly. Resolve issues faster.
- Part of the governments plans – fits in with white paper and calls to action. Area boards provide a mechanism for dealing with calls to action – hopefully will avoid the need for people to make such calls.
Q. There has been a steady erosion of services in rural areas. What will be done to help with this?
- Are aware of the need to try and protect such services. Wiltshire has a lot of isolated rural communities. Unitary council will be working together with local communities to create rural hubs and protect things like post offices and local shops and schools.
- Will also look at how to grow front line services. Will look at rural transport network and how people can access the services.
Q. Question regarding negotiations with Kennet district council over a particular piece of land that includes agricultural land. Will the county council consider taking it over – would be the most beneficial solution?
- Can't comment about the particular situation. If an agreement is reached with Kennet District Council before April 2009 the unitary council will honour it. If half way through Kennet will probably get county council involved and ask for their views.
Q. What will be happening with regard to management and quality assurance – how will complaints be dealt with under the new council?
- Got a team working on this at the moment. Will have to have an independent complaints service.
Q. Thought Beaufort would be closing – if that isn't going to happen where will the projected savings come from?
- Not going to close Beaufort. Will be rationalising accommodation though – will be savings from moving some teams out of poor accommodation that is very costly to maintain.
- Will be considerable savings from unifying the organisations – won't need five sets of managers and directors any more – will create single more efficient system and will also have economies of scale benefits when dealing with private sector.
- Projected savings are quite conservative. Should be able to meet them easily. Won't mean and reductions in front-line services.
Q. How many jobs will go as result of the unification?
- Currently about 4,000 employed by the county and district councils (excluding teachers). Projections are that the unitary council will only need about 250 fewer staff overall.
Q. Will there be another round of these face to face meetings before the end of this year? Can you make sure that the paperwork is provided in advance next time - would be much better prepared if had had chance to read everything in the packs beforehand.
- Will be holding another round of sessions in autumn.
- A lot of the papers were sent out the town and parish clerks in advance. Will try and get the paperwork out sooner next time including the agenda. Part of the problem is the speed at which the situation is changing. If the paperwork is sent out more than a week in advance of the meeting then can't guarantee it won't be outdated by the meeting.
Q. What will happen with the parish and town councils and the unitary council elections?
- Order made for next round of parish & town council elections to be cancelled. Next elections will take place 2013 in order to coincide with the unitary council elections. Jane Scott would like to see the unitary council assume the costs for both sets of elections. Currently an unreasonable burden on town and parish councils.
Action points from the meeting:
- Provide more information about what each of the services listed on the delegation menu involves. Also indicative costs.
- Change wording to make clear that town & parish councillors won't be able to vote on the area boards - “standing members” currently implies they will.
- Will have another round of these face to face sessions in the Autumn. Get paperwork out well in advance and include the agenda for the meeting.
- Make sure the campaign to explain what is happening in front line services avoids too much jargon – make clear how it will affect people – avoid abstract policy explanations.
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