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04 Dec 2008, Time:00:18
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Parish Meet and Greet Session, Chippenham
Q. Can you explain more about the liaison between the new council and the town and parish councils? Previously had town & parish councils, then district councils one step above and county council above that. Now going to have town & parish councils, then area boards, then unitary council at the top. What will the difference be?
- Will be a real difference. Going to have genuine delegation to the community level. Going to be opportunity for town & parish councils to take on delegated services under agreements with the unitary council. Won't be an obligation – but will have the opportunity – some of the larger town & parish councils are definitely interested.
- No delegation without funding. If the service is delegated the budget goes with it. Will have written agreement to deliver the agreed service at the agreed price. If a town or parish council is able to perform the same service at a lower cost they can keep the difference. Unitary council will only be checking to see it is performed to the agreed standard – won't be checking if used all the money.
- Two phases – discussion and development phase this year and then putting it into practice next year. Won't only be one chance to get involved though. Can wait a while and decide to join in the future – not expecting to have everyone take on delegated powers right away.
Q. If town & parish councils do deliver the service at a lower cost then surely that means next time the county will agree a lower price? Won't let them continue to profit from the arrangement so could be victims of own success?
- Won't operate like that. Parallel situation to services that are contracted out to private contractors. Has to be a formal quasi-commercial relationship. Can't change the terms just because contractor makes a profit and can't complain if service is delivered to the agreed standard at the agreed price.
Q. Currently parish council is footing the bill for street cleaning because want to keep it nice and county/district councils don't deliver a good enough service. Will this be looked at afresh?
- If town & parish councils choose to offer a higher level of service then that is up to them. Free to topup if they want to. Not going to be giving more funding to the parishes to deliver a higher level of service though – is about parishes delivering a better service if they can for the same money.
Q. Will there be a discussion about delegation of highway maintenance? Very wasteful and inefficient at the moment.
- There is a team looking at that. Is very inefficient - working out ways to change that. Not planning to delegate minor road maintenance to town & parish councils though. Is one of the areas that is likely to be delegated down to the area boards – not suitable to delegate any further down the chain.
Q. What help with the unitary authority provide for town and parish councils who want to take on some of the services but don't have the necessary skills?
- Lots of possibilities for dealing with these situations. Could get together with other town & parish councils – form a consortium to pool resources. Or could negotiate with the unitary council where you need professional advice in order to make a decision. Parish stewards may also be able to help.
Q. Won't there be an issue with economies of scale. If lots take up the delegation opportunities but a few don't will you still be able to deliver the service to those few? Instead of delegating to lots of individual parishes wouldn't it be better to delegate the service to a large town like Malmesbury?
- Will be part of the negotiations to consider whether the proposed delegation would undermine the service that could be delivered to the others.
- May well decide it would be best to delegate certain services to the larger towns rather than lots of individual parishes. County council can't suggest that without being accused of merger by stealth! Up to the parish & town councils to suggest it.
Q. Surely there will be a lot of work involved in negotiating the agreements? Will have to be formal contracts with provisions to cover inflationary increases and so on. How will this save money?
- Want to keep the formal agreements as simple and standard as possible. Need people other than lawyers to be able to understand it.
Q. Surely by fragmenting the buying power of the unitary council it will end up costing more – losing the economies of scale?
- Don't accept that is necessarily the case with all services. Will be a lot of cases where it might cost more – so wouldn't take on delegation in those areas. However has been said in many cases the town & parish council could deliver a better service for the money – these plans for delegation are in response to those comments.
Q. How will the quality control and monitoring operate to make sure the agreed standards are being met?
- Parish stewards and local unity councillors would notice if things weren't being done as agreed. However also got to trust one another – has to be a professional relationship.
Q. Rather than delegating a whole service will it be possible for town & parish councils to deliver a top-up to a higher level of service?
- In principle would be no objection to town & parish councils topping up to a higher level of service. Delegation and funding has to be about setting an objective baseline service though – can't get higher funding from the unitary council to have a higher level of service in their particular area.
Q. Have got the impression that the council will only be doing delegation deals with 'quality councils' – of which there are very few. Is this impression correct?
- No. Not pushing quality councils at all with this scheme.
Q. Question from councillor who is disabled. How will the unitary council make things better for the disabled? Currently a lot of properties without disabled access. Disabled people will want things to improve with the unification to one council.
- Right to expect adequate provision for the disabled. Obviously there are legal requirements relating to disabled access – but also need to tell the council exactly what you want/need. Get involved with the area boards initiative. Currently people pass the buck between the county and district councils – that won't be possible any more when it is one unitary council. Should be better.
Q. Will the 3 years mentioned be long enough for delegation agreements? If investing in plant and machinery for grass cutting, for example, would need longer for the investment to be worthwhile.
- Three years was just an example. Could be any length depending on the individual case. Common in the private sector contracts to have very long periods in order for the investment to pay off.
Q. The next steps document acknowledges that negotiations “could take quite a time” - this is an understatement! Only got 11 months before the unitary council comes into being – is it intended to have the agreements in place by then or will it be continued into the unitary period?
- Want to get things under way this year but not expecting everyone to take up the delegation opportunities right away. Can choose to pursue it at any time in the future with the unitary council.
Q. What is happening with the boundaries and the boundary review? There was a mistake made with the figures in relation to Box – is this being put right?
- Is a Boundary Review Update in the document pack. Also information on the website. Parish & town councils' comments have been reported to the boundary review working party and will be reported to county council meeting 18 April. At that meeting hoping to approve submission to the Boundary Committee – will include proposals for the 98 electoral divisions for the unitary council. Boundary Committee should come back with recommendations early July 2008.
- The mistake in relation to Box has now been put right.
- Appreciate the complaints about boundaries and will argue the case before the Boundaries Committee. The committee will only deal with numbers though – not interested in historical or cultural issues.
- Town and village boundaries are currently looked at by the district councils who have to refer the matter up to the secretary of state. This will be changing in the future – will be the responsibility of the unitary council without having to go to the secretary of state.
- Should have a bit more flexibility when deciding the boundaries for the community areas. Can't decide this until had the Boundaries Committee recommendations though – may be able to tweak things to make sure don't have area boards / partnerships that are too small.
Q. There are currently a lot of anomalies in the arrangements between different district councils and town & parish councils in different areas. What is the time scale for these anomalies to be ironed out by the unitary council? Will smoothing these anomalies out mean bringing everything down to the lowest common denominator?
- Don't know what all the anomalies are at the moment – will need to get all the information before council can start sorting it out. Will be harmonising things across the whole county over time – not likely to involve bringing everything down to the lowest common denominator.
Q. Can you give more information about how the community partnerships and area boards will work? What progress has been made?
- Will be one area board for each area. Delegated executive arm of the unitary council. Local unitary councillors plus one member of unitary cabinet. Meetings will be completely open – anyone may attend – chance to make your voice heard. More details will be worked out over the coming year.
- All about putting the government's community vision into action. Translating the Local Area Agreement into meaningful local targets. Implementation Executive has identified 12 community areas at the moment in which to try things out. N. Wilts wants to be involved. Southampton University has offered the services of a researcher who will design how to measure the performance of the trials. Will also make sure the resources are there to allow the schemes to work effectively.
- Will involve a big shift in how services operate. Have to re-design front-line services to make sure they are responsive to the needs of the community.
Q. The community area partnerships are supposed to involve the wider community services such as police and fire brigade and health services. However in recent years we have been losing the local services like community hospitals and local police and fire stations. Isn't this trying to put back together something that we used to have but lost?
- True that a lot of these services have been lost at the local level. Perhaps if the area boards and partnerships had existed at that time it might have been possible to resist the closures more effectively. Can only go forward from this point. There is enthusiasm from the police with regard to the community plans and council is working with PCT as well. Got to make it work when there will be the possibility of 'community calls to action' as outlined in government white paper.
Q. Will the area boards and the partnerships be working together?
- Area boards and community area partnerships will have to work together. Won't work if they stay completely separate. May have a partnership meeting first and then the board meeting immediately after - with a lot of the same people staying for the second meeting.
Q. How will the funding work – will it be in accordance with population or by area?
- Funding for community areas won't drop below what it is now. Got to work out the details of how to divide the funding between boards, partnerships and local projects – also the basis for dividing funding between the different boards. Not sure yet exactly how it will work but will have to be transparent and fair.
Q. As standing members of the area boards will town and parish councillors have the right to vote at area boards? Missed opportunity for enhanced town and parish council power if don't get to vote? Description of town & parish councillors as “standing members” of the area boards is misleading if they won't actually have voting rights.
- No! Thought about this for a long time but came to the conclusion that only unitary councillors could have voting rights. Board is delegated executive arm of the unitary council – not right that parish & town councillors should have the right to vote.
- Don't need to have vote in order to have influence. Would be foolish if unitary councillors don't take notice of the views of parish & town councillors. As good community leaders the unitary councillors should value the opinions of the elected town and parish councillors. Can't guarantee the quality of the unitary councillors – but will be giving them training and support to try and make sure they perform their role well.
- Not a missed opportunity to increase the power of town & parish councils. Getting enhanced powers through the opportunity to take on delegated services.
- Will change the wording of the documents to make clear that they will be standing non-voting members.
Q. Won't the area boards in some areas be rather small – only 2 or 3 unitary councillors? What safeguards will there be to make sure it is representative where there are very few voting members?
- Will be looking at this – but can't decide things until the Boundaries Commission has reported back on the electoral boundaries. Should have more flexibility with the community area boundaries compared to the Boundaries Commission. If necessary may need to join some areas together to make sure the area board has at least 5 unitary councillors. May end up with around 15-16 area boards. There will also be one member of the unitary council cabinet attached to each area board which provides another safeguard.
Q. Isn't there going to be a problem where all the unitary councillors on a particular board are of the same political persuasion? May be tensions if their views and policies conflict with the politics of the community area partnerships?
- Will always be this risk with any political process. Inevitable. Won't be perfect – will be some mistakes made. But should be better than the current situation where councillors who are not on the cabinet feel they have no power and influence at all.
- New system will push power down to the local level and enable greater variation to meet the needs of particular communities. Will be safeguards too – area boards will have constraints of an agreed budget and policy. Will also have the council officers to advise them.
- Exciting opportunity to get people together at the community level and solve problems by working together.
Q. Do you have evidence that the current system isn't working – do you have evidence that the new system will work better?
- Do have evidence that the current system is failing. Public satisfaction surveys indicate the public are over-consulted and then ignored. Very low election turnout. Widespread lack of confidence in democracy and local government.
- Can't guarantee the new system will work – but is exciting new opportunity. Goes further than other councils are going – attracting attention for being at the forefront.
- Can't compare the area boards and partnerships with how things operate currently with separate district and county councils. District councils only deliver 20% of public services. The new unitary authority will be providing 100% of the combined public services.
Q. Surprised and a little concerned to hear that Wiltshire is at the forefront of these changes – thought other counties already had area boards and partnerships? Isn't it a tried and tested model?
- Other counties have been experimenting with some of these ideas but very few have progressed to such detailed plans. University of Southampton informed council that Wiltshire's plans are the most advanced.
Q. Won't the smaller parishes get drowned out by the larger ones at the area boards?
- Don't believe this will happen. Parish and rural community voices will be heard on the area boards. Based on previous experience it is not the case that parishes are drowned out by town councils - in fact often get parishes ganging up so their views are heard more strongly than those of the town councils!
Q. Will it be limited to 1 parish representative at the area board meetings? Will they be able to attend more than one area board?
- This is currently being discussed. Jane Scott's view is that the area boards should have completely open meetings that anyone can attend. Can have more than one representative from a parish council if you want. Want as many people as possible – don't want to impose any formal restrictions.
Q. Saw a document previously that was the proposed Wiltshire family tree. Would have been useful to have it included in the documentation for this session – could that be arranged? That document showed community partnerships being on a level with town & parish councils with regard to input to the area boards. Surely this is wrong? Special interest groups and random members of the public at the partnerships shouldn't be on par with elected town & parish councillors?
- The document described wasn't included because didn't think people would be interested in it. It was actually about the large strategic partnership in the county that has been running for some time. Got to make changes to its governance in order to fit in with the Local Area Agreement (LAA). Diagram showed how community partnerships would feed into the assembly whilst area boards would feed into a much tighter group delivering LAA priorities.
- Right that community partnerships will have the same opportunity to make their voice heard at area boards as town & parish councillors. Will be open meetings where anyone including town & parish councillors, special interest groups and members of the public will be able to speak. Example of good local democracy. Don't see how you could have a formal system for giving preferential weighting to town & parish councillors. Will be up to the skill of the unitary councillor to weigh up all the different views and arguments – that is as it should be. Unitary councillors should be able to recognise the distinction between elected town & parish councillors and others. Remember police and fire service not elected either – got to trust people to work together.
Q. Will there be any development control work done by the area boards? At what level will development control be done?
Definitely not. Talking about how Development Control will operate under the new council right now. Will be a minimum of 4 development control committees across the county with properly trained unitary councillors to carry out the work. Not suitable for area boards.
Q. Worried about problems with corporate governance?
- Will be formal delegation to local officers. Will avoid corporate government problems.
Q. What will the job description for the unitary councillors be? Will area boards be the place for people who want to be unitary councillors but also want to keep their day job?
- Area boards should be meeting in the evenings so everyone can attend. May have to have some daytime meetings as well in order for the boards to get their job done. Should indeed be possible for people to be local unitary councillors on area boards whilst also having a day job.
Q. Question from someone who works in the voluntary sector and who has experience of pluralist all encompassing groups trying to sort things out. In her experience it doesn't work – not able to make decisions – or make decisions that only the minority support. How can you pilot the planned system this year and check it will work when there won't be any unitary councillors until April?
- Won't be able to “pilot” it properly. But will be able to test out ideas for best practices. Got a lot of ideas about how it could work. Talking to the services teams about how the new system can be plugged into the service providers with their budget and structure. Re-shaping the services in order to make it work with the new system.
Q. Won't the new system go the same way as the area committees. Turned into 'talking shops'. Gave up in the end as didn't result in anything being done. If you are inviting people to attend and make a difference you have to give them rights too.
- Area boards will be very different to area committees. Area committees had to refer decisions back up the chain – area boards will have delegated powers to make decisions themselves.
- Working closely with the services at the moment to see where the scope is for offering more local choice and decision making. Have been testing things out with considerable success. Don't condemn the new system prematurely until you've given it a chance.
Q. Will funding for the information points in North Wiltshire continue after April 2009?
- Generally not proposing to take funding for existing services away – but were not aware that the information points were only funded until April. Will have to follow this up and find out more about the situation.
Action points from the meeting:
- Correct the wording of the documents to make clear that town and parish councillors will be standing non-voting members of the boards.
- Follow up the situation with continued funding for the information points in north Wilts.
- Let people see the 'Wiltshire family tree diagram' if they would like to.
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