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04 Dec 2008, Time:00:31
You are here: Wiltshire County Council > Home > Council > Towards One Council > Spring 2008 Town & Parish Council Meet and Greet Sessions > Parish Meet and Greet Session, Trowbridge County Hall
Parish Meet and Greet Session, Trowbridge County Hall
Q. Querying the practicality of the opportunity for town and parish councils to take on delegated services. Surely it would cost town and parish councils more to undertake these services than it would cost the unitary council?
- Been told that in many cases town and parish councils could provide the same quality service for less. Will be areas where it is not viable – might need economies of scale or would cost too much to invest in the staff and equipment. But in some cases town and parish councils are already carrying out similar services. Won't be forced to take any services over – if it wouldn't work then that's fine and unitary council will continue to provide the service.
- May be alternative options to consider – for example if one small parish council can't take on that service they might want to form a consortium with some other small parishes – could do it together. Or if not viable option when looked at in isolation, may want to consider if the service could be grafted on to other work the town/parish already contracts for.
Q. Where town and parish councils do choose to take over a service how will the budget be divided up between those councils and the ones who don't? How will you make sure that by delegating services and budgets to some towns and parishes, you don't prejudice the position of the others who are left? May lose the critical mass at the centre needed to keep performing the service for all.
- That would be considered when negotiating whether to delegate particular services. Would have to be part of the equation when negotiating.
Q. Current services are a mixture of statutory and non-statutory services. If funding cuts were forced on the unitary council in the future would non-statutory services be more at risk of being lost unless town and parish councils opted to take them over? Would the funding cut affect the delegated services?
- Non-statutory services are perhaps always more vulnerable by definition. The distinction between statutory and non-statutory isn't always critical though. In many cases statutory duty doesn't stipulate level of service – can undermine a statutory service by changing the eligibility criteria.
- If the unitary council and a town/parish council had an agreement for delegation of services the unitary council would have to honour that agreement. Similar situation to contracts with private contractors – can't just stop funding and pull out of the agreement because experiencing financial difficulties – would have to let it run its course. Has to operate on the basis of formal agreements and responsibilities.
- Question of whether a town and parish council should step in to provide a service that the unitary council is planning to stop is a separate matter. Not the same scenario as taking on delegated services with agreed budget and level of service.
Q. What is the view regarding public conveniences? Councils have been pulling out of this service – in many cases has already been passed over to town and parish councils – with funding in some cases and without in others. Very unequal.
- Public conveniences is one of the issues that will have to be looked at. Appreciate that there is a lot of inequality and variation at the moment. Jane Scott's personal view is that the council should provide this service and there ought to be a statutory duty to do so.
Q. Uncomfortable about the basis of the delegation agreements – agreeing standard of service and costs for providing it. Said if parish/town council end up delivering the service for less than the agreed sum they will be able to keep the difference. Won't this lead to a situation where town and parish councils will just look to taking over services where they think they can make a profit? Provision of public services shouldn't operate on this basis – spending more public money than you need to?
- Situation is parallel to that with private contractors. The council currently tenders many services out to private contractors. Private contractors obviously look to make a profit from performing the service - wouldn't do it otherwise. But that doesn't mean the council is losing out – getting value for money with competitive tendering if contractor delivers service to agreed standard.
Q. What happens if town and parish councils want to provide a higher level of service than that offered by the council – would it be funded?
- Delegation would involve the council passing over the money they currently spend providing that service to that area to the town and parish council. Would be the sum needed to perform the service to the same standard the council currently provides. If individual town and parish councils wanted to provide a higher standard of service they would be free to top it up – but couldn't secure higher level of funding for higher level of service through the delegation agreement.
Q. Not really delegation in the purest sense of the word. Plans talk of town and parish councils acting as 'agents' of the unitary authority – legal liabilities would stay with the unitary authority?
- Partly true – may not be delegation in the fullest sense of the word – at least in relation to the services. Should be true delegation in regard to decision making however. Will be able to make decisions on things like street names, for example, without having to involve those further up the chain with the bureaucracy that entails.
Q. In many cases economies of scale will militate against town and parish councils taking over services. However will there be the opportunity for delegating the monitoring of performance of the services?
- Yes. In favour of that model of operation – parallel to the situation with parish stewards which works very well. Happy to be told what needs doing and if it is being done well or not.
Q. There is currently a lot of variation across the county regarding division of services between district councils and town & parish councils. Different degrees of delegation – in some cases with funding, in some without. How will that be dealt with?
- Appreciate there is a lot of variation. Will be inheriting a patchwork of arrangements across the county. Need to be told what the patches are – please provide the necessary information. Over time everything will have to be harmonised, but it will take time.
Q. How about the variation in ownership of community assets like play areas? Currently complicated with regard to funding too – anomalies in a lot of areas and double taxation issues.
- This will also have to be looked at. Currently quite messy with play areas – some owned by county council, some by district councils, some by town and parish councils and some more directly by community. In Jane Scott's opinion communities should have the opportunity to take them on themselves. Funding will also have to be looked at. Currently a lot of anomalies – same with things like tax relief for shops in the different districts. Tell her about these issues – need to have the information.
Q. Won't there be confusion about having both area boards and community area partnerships? The people who are involved with one will be the same people who are interested in the other. Doubt there is room for both entities – will probably find that the partnerships wither fairly quickly. Dual approach won't work?
- Looked into these issues carefully when deciding upon the proposals for the new system. There are currently 17 community partnerships in operation which have been very successful – but people wanted them to have more 'teeth' – more power to make things happen.
- Did consider having a model with just a single community body. However the message from existing partnerships was they wanted to be separate – they wanted to be independent from the delegated executive arm of the unitary council. Area boards are part of the unitary council constitution – have officers alongside local unitary councillors, plus a council cabinet member attached to each board. The partnerships wanted to be independent from that. Partners operating to solve common problems – will have council officers taking part too.
- Believe the dual approach can work – have had similar dual approach working well in N.Wilts and Kennet for some time. Town and parish councillors won't always be involved in the partnerships – more likely to focus on the area boards where they will be standing members.
- To work well there will have to be strong connection between the boards and partnerships – will be some overlap. May want to have a partnership meeting scheduled first and then hold the area board meeting immediately after in the same place with many of the same people.
- Think it will work – but can always make changes in the future when had the chance to monitor its success.
Q. Isn't there a risk that the community area partnerships will just be 'talking shops'?
- No. Have already had examples of how partnerships can operate effectively. For example had a problem with youth and antisocial behaviour – tension in community between youth and elderly – dysfunctional. Approach of public services was also inconsistent – difference in how it was viewed by youth service, leisure services and police. Got everyone together to sort it out – very successful when all parties had a chance to understand the perspective of the others better. This is how it should operate.
Q. How will the community area partnerships be funded – current partnerships are funded mostly through grants but these have been drying up?
- Will be exploring that issue over the next 9 months of the development phase. Are committed to providing adequate funding for the community level. Need to decide how to divide it up between area boards, community area partnerships and local projects. Won't be left without funding though. Funding for boards will include the resources to support the unitary councillors properly. Very significant levels of funding and resources promised over the next five years.
Q. Quite a bit of confusion about the respective roles of the community area partnerships and the area boards. Documents speak of increased “power” of the partnerships. Some people thinking the partnerships will be making the same sort of decisions as the area boards – need to clarify this. Reassure partnerships that their work will be of real value, but not going to have increased spending power.
- Valuable comment. It is about better spending, not higher spending. Experiences in the existing partnerships and area committees indicate people don't automatically choose the most expensive option they are offered – happy with the option they think is best for them. Will make an effort to make sure people are clear about the role and powers of the partnerships though.
Q. Might it turn out that partnerships actually end up with more power than the boards in practice? Area boards' power will depend upon their budget – once spent their budget for the year will be a spent force. People will actually be able to exert more influence via the council officers at the community partnerships?
- Don't envisage that happening – but will need co-operation and communication between the two. Would want unitary councillors to attend the partnership meetings too – not just the area board.
Q. Does the description of the town and parish councillors as “standing members” of area boards mean they will have voting rights? If not how can they be sure they will be listened to?
- No. Thought long and hard about this but decided can't give them voting rights. Parallel situation to current county/district councillors attending town and parish council meetings – can come along and express opinions and join in debate – but not right they should have the right to vote.
- Unitary councillors would be foolish not to listen to town and parish councillors in practice. Should respect their views as elected members. Anyone can attend and speak at the area boards – but unitary councillors should have the skills to weigh up the value of the informed contribution of town and parish councillors compared to the ranting of random people with extreme views! Can't guarantee the quality of the unitary councillors – but will be doing some training and recruitment sessions which should help.
Q. Surprised and disappointed that town & parish councillors won't have voting rights on the boards. Won't really be enough people voting if just 4 or 5 unitary councillors at area board – or will unitary councillors attend several different boards?
- Unitary councillors will just attend one local board – will not be on several area boards. Council team will be looking at the community area boundaries once the boundaries commission has reported back on the ward boundaries. If too few unitary councillors in an area may have to tweak the boundaries and join two together to make a single board.
Q. Even if they can't vote will town and parish councillors be fully engaged standing members in every other sense – will they be provided with all the same information in plenty of time before the meeting? Currently find they are given outdated information or unreasonable time limits for response? Understand reluctance to distribute vast amounts of paperwork – but could be directed to a web link with the most up to date information?
- Yes. As standing members of the boards will receive all the information and papers and will be entitled to the same officer support as unitary councillors.
- Appreciate may have been difficulties in the past – but unreasonably short response times often imposed by central government. Will make the effort to make sure parish councillors get all the information in good time – web link good idea.
Q. Will there be one standing member from each town and parish council attending the area board? If going to have standing members provided with information then surely will need to be a named person?
- Don't want to be restrictive. Are public meetings and should be open to everyone to attend – not limited to one member from each town and parish council. In practice may want to nominate someone to attend, but should be easy to make substitutions and no actual limit on who can come.
Q. Won't there be some tension between the town councils and the area boards if operating at the same level? Won't town councillors be in a stronger position than parish councillors on the boards? Won't the town councils have more unitary members at the boards on account of their greater size?
- Don't believe there will be conflict or tension between town councils and area boards.
- Town councillors and parish councillors will be on equal footing at the area boards. Parishes can be a force to be reckoned with – don't see town councillors having greater power.
- Is true here might be more unitary councillors who represent town areas than parish areas if there is a greater proportion of the population in the towns.
Q. Please can you elaborate on the sorts of services that will be within the remit of the area boards – are there more details available?
- Currently in the process of identifying where the opportunities are for community level decision making. Council team will be talking to the community about what will be on offer. Currently thinking about street scene, youth development, opening hours, libraries, safety, transport.
- Currently having conversations with the front-line services teams about these areas. Can't run proper pilot schemes at the moment without the new unitary councillors in place. However have been running some trials and testing out ideas.
Q. How frequently do you envisage area boards meeting?
- Exploring this at the moment. Thinking about partnerships and boards starting off with a 'state of the area' event to get ideas for their agendas for the year. See what the issues are. Might then have feedback event too – and a meeting to discuss funding. Could have other meetings for specific topics too. Otherwise up to the partnerships and boards to decide – should be flexible. Don't want to prescribe set number of meetings and then find some don't have anything to discuss. Bigger areas may have more issues. May want to have more regular meetings to begin with when getting things going and trying it out for the first time.
Q. Will the area boards be involved in development control?
- No. Development Control will be carried out by a minimum of 4 development committees throughout the county – need to have properly trained individuals on these committees – not appropriate for areas boards to do this work.
Q. Will parishes still be consulted about planning matters? Will the written notifications to neighbours about planning applications be retained – not happy that West Wilts. has stopped this practice.
- Yes – got legal obligation to consult parishes in the same way as now. Will also want to see the letters to neighbours about planning applications continued. Agree it should be done.
- Got a team looking at planning under the new council at the moment – all the district councils and the implementation executive. Should be able to provide more information after the meeting scheduled for June.
Q. Seem to have focused on county council services so far – need to give more attention to district council services too. New council has to have flatter profile - get away silo effect and distinctions between county and district levels.
- Have tried to include district council services too – but will take this on board for future sessions. Flatter organisation without the old distinctions between council and district services is what the unitary council is all about!
Q. Can you confirm when the next town and parish council elections will be?
- Have had order confirming there won't be any elections until 2013. Will synchronise town and parish elections with the unitary elections. Jane Scott also proposing that the cost of the elections should be met by the unitary council as it is currently an excessive drain on town and parish precepts.
Q. Can you take this opportunity to correct the boundaries as they currently stand? Boundaries Commission is only interested in numbers – takes no account of cultural, spiritual or historical links. Councillors should be representing people from similar areas - villages who have a lot in common - shouldn't be bundled together with suburbs of a town.
- Have tried. Understand and agree with the comments. However Boundaries Commission won't listen – works purely on electorate numbers with no more than 10% difference either way – equal representation.
- Will have a bit more flexibility with community area boundaries than the Boundaries Commission has with wards – but got to wait for the Boundaries Commission work before settling the community area boundaries.
Q. Parish councillor recently received a letter regarding rates for the village hall which is run by a charity. Currently enjoys substantial rates reduction. However letter warns the reduction will cease at the end of March 2009 when the new unitary council takes over. People are worried they will lose the subsidy – can they have reassurance that the letter is just a formality?
- Please send the letter in question to Keith Robinson for him to look at. Not intending to change such arrangements when setting the budget for the new unitary council next year. Intend to honour such arrangements.
Action points from Meeting:
- Where there is variation in the current arrangements between town & parish councils and district councils bring these to the Jane and Keith's attention – need to have all the information.
- Bring the current anomalies and double taxation situations to Jane and Keith's attention too – things like inequality of tax relief on shops or ownership and funding of play areas.
- Clarify the extent of the partnerships' power under the new system – avoid using language that implies they will be making the same decisions as area boards.
- Change misleading reference to town & parish councillors as “standing members” of the area boards in the paperwork. Be clear they won't be able to vote as currently implied that they will.
- Make sure in future face to face sessions that district council services are covered to the same extent as county council services – danger of giving the impression future unitary council only interested in county council side of things.
- Will make sure the practice of sending letters to neighbours about planning applications is continued in the future. Will report back the decisions of the team currently sorting out the details for planning work under the new council.
- Will do all they can to correct the current problems with the boundaries – will present the arguments to the Boundaries Commission.
- Send the letter about losing the subsidy for the charity run village hall to Keith Robinson – he should be able to reassure people that such arrangements will be honoured by the new council.
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