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04 Dec 2008, Time:01:01
You are here: Wiltshire County Council > Home > Council > Towards One Council > Spring 2008 Town & Parish Council Meet and Greet Sessions > Parish Meet & Greet Session, Sarum College, Salisbury
Parish Meet & Greet Session, Sarum College, Salisbury
Q. How will it work with lots of individual scattered parishes taking on services and lots deciding against it – very inconsistent if all making different decisions on services?
- Will have to take a reasonable and sensible approach. For some services, like gritting icy roads, would need to have some consistency, but for others, like litter picking, could have decisions on a parish by parish basis. In some cases where the services require investment in equipment it would make sense for a cluster of parishes and possibly a town council to take on the delegated services jointly.
Q. Isn't this idea of delegation to local parishes going back to the situation in the 1920's, where local parishes used to hire services and equipment from local farmers?
- It isn't a completely new idea. Some parish councils currently pay local farmers to carry out grass cutting for example. Problem at the moment is that the parish cuts some pieces of grass, and then the district and/or county council cut other bits of grass at different times of the year. Delegation of the county/district grass cutting services to the parish would allow all the grass to be cut at the same time more efficiently.
Q. Will the money to carry out the delegated services be passed down to the parish and town councils ?
- Yes – the budget for the services goes with the delegation. Parish council will receive the same money that the county council would otherwise have spent carrying out the service in that parish. Will be formal contracts agreeing the performance levels and money. Will include inflationary clauses and get-out clauses etc.
Q. Will there be a lot of bureaucracy and time involved in agreeing the contracts?
- No. Want to keep the bureaucracy and paperwork to a minimum. Planning to try and get a standard agreement worked out with WALC.
Q. In an earlier meeting a county council representative said that once parish councils decided to take on delegated services there would be no possibility of handing them back to the unitary council. Is this true? Doesn't fit with the mention of “get-out clauses” in the earlier question?
- Representative in question may have given misleading information. Delegation won't be final and indefinite. Will need to have proper service level agreements running for an agreed period of time – may be one year or several years depending on the situation. Where the agreements run for several years there will need to be inflationary clauses and reviews. Will have to see how it goes before deciding whether to renew particular contracts.
Q. If parish councils take on delegated services would they become 'employers' with all the legal implications that brings? Insurance, health & safety responsibilities and so on?
Yes, that might be the case. Would have to consider that.Q. Parish councils currently sort out their own third party insurances etc where necessary. Would it be better to try and sort out some sort of group insurance scheme?
Good idea – could look into that with WALC.Q. How will the cost of carrying out a particular service in a particular parish be calculated and when will these figures be released?
- Will be a difficult task isolating the costs. With something like grass cutting where you can calculate the area of grass in the parish and the current cost of cutting a square meter it will be fairly easy. With other reactive services like filling in potholes, however, it will be very difficult.
- As there will be a lot of work involved the county council will wait to find out who is interested before doing the necessary cost calculations. Have asked for town and parish councils to respond by July. Should be clear about numbers taking up the delegated services and be able to do the calculations early autumn.
Q. Very difficult to decide whether parish is interested in the scheme without having any idea about the costs of different services – need some figures before making decisions.
- Makes sense. Could provide some rough estimates – ballpark figures – to help parishes decide whether or not to pursue it further.
Q. If a parish takes on delegated services they might have to make the part-time parish clerk into a full-time clerk and maybe provide him with an office and assistant – would there be money to pay for this?
- No, there won't be any money to cover additional roles and bureaucracy at the parish level. These sorts of issues and costs would have to be taken into consideration when deciding whether or not to take up the offer of delegated services.
- Offer may be more attractive to town councils who already have employed full time staff.
Q. Wouldn't the county council be saving on staff salaries if they delegate the services, so this money could be passed down to the parish councils?
- No. County council currently contract with contractors for the work – would be similar situation with the delegation - just contracting with parish councils instead.
Q. By delegating services to parish councils will the unitary council be saving money that it would otherwise have spent on negotiating contracts with contractors?
- Don't know at this stage. Will depend on how many parishes take up the delegated services – too many unknowns.
Q. How will the calculations take reduced county council overheads into account? Need to factor that in too otherwise it won't be a level playing field.
- Is a complicated question. Depending on how many parish councils take up the delegated services there may not actually be any savings on overheads – will have to look at it later when more is known.
Q. Foresee problems divorcing responsibility from authority. County council is currently looking at how the delegation system will work through rose tinted glasses. What will actually happen is that financial pressures on the unitary council will make them push down the prices each year for which the town & parish councils have to carry out the services. The parish councils won't have the authority to raise the money for the delegated services themselves, so they will end up in great difficulties. Parish & town councils would therefore be well advised to avoid entering into these delegation agreements.
- County council is not looking at the system through rose tinted glasses. Appreciate the difficulties and potential problems that need to be sorted out in order for the delegation to work.
- The situation will be similar to the agency agreements which the county council has been entering into for some time. There aren't unlimited funds so the parties have to negotiate – both parties discuss how much money is available and then agree the volume and quality of work which can be delivered for that sum.
- The agreements will be proper contracts that the council must honour in the same way as contracts with private contractors. Will have inflationary clauses etc. where they run for several years – unitary council won't be able to cut the funding arbitrarily.
- Both parties should enter into the agreements in the right spirit with a view to making it work. However in many cases it won't be appropriate for a small parish council to take on the services. Absolutely no obligation on parish councils – simply an opportunity for those who have the resources and want to take on the services.
Q. Small parishes simply won't be able to handle all the administration, employment issues etc necessary for taking on delegated services.
- Understand that. Simply won't be possible or desirable in many cases. However some larger town and parish councils have said they want to take on these services and can carry them out more efficiently. Some are already set up as employers etc. Just giving these the opportunity – no obligation on anybody.
Q. At the moment the parish councils raise precept money to carry out certain parish council activities. Have no reason to take on extra activities and responsibilities when they wouldn't have control over raising the money.
- Valid point of view. Reiterated that it is only an offer – parish councils free to decide not to take it up.
Q. Rather than passing over the relevant share of the money from the county council precept, wouldn't it be better to simply have the parish council take over responsibility for raising the money through the parish precept?
- Might be possible – could look into that.
Q. There are currently five parishes working together as the Bourne Valley alliance. Acting together means they have a stronger voice. Wouldn't it make sense to have groups of parish councils take up delegated services?
- Yes, would make a lot of sense – stronger negotiating power and sharing cost of equipment for services and so on. However, the unitary council couldn't force parishes to work together in clusters – must be up to the town and parish councils themselves to suggest getting together.
Q. If clusters of parishes get together to take on delegated services between them aren't you effectively re-creating the district councils?!
- No. Won't be the same. Cluster of five parishes working together for some delegated services does not equate to a district council.
Q. The parish steward scheme works very well. Will this be continued?
- Yes the parish steward scheme will continue. Even if parish councils decide they don't have the resources or inclination to take on delegated services, they will still be able to influence local services through the Area Boards and parish steward scheme. Can influence local services by these means without all the complications of actually taking on the delegated services themselves.
Q. Rather than spending time on this delegation scheme with all its complications, wouldn't it be better to expand the parish stewardship scheme to cover all the services currently undertaken by county and district councils? Parish councils aren't keen on the delegation scheme whereas they do like the parish stewardship.
- If that is the general view then happy to look at expanding the parish stewardship scheme to cover more services.
- Full delegation scheme has been requested by some larger town and parish councils so need to offer this option too.
Q. If a parish doesn't want to take on delegated services, but does want to see the parish stewardship scheme expanded, should they put that in their July response?
- Yes – do want to hear if people want the parish stewardship expanded.
Q. Question about hedge cutting for a play area that the parish holds on a long lease from the county council. Volunteers currently cut one side and county council are supposed to do the other side. However safety risk from overgrown hedge on bend of road means volunteers end up doing the county bit too. Can they be reimbursed for this?
- Suggest speaking to the parish steward about the particular hedge in question.
Q. Current position very inconsistent throughout the county. Some parish/town councils already have responsibility for and pay for services that are carried out by the district or county council in other areas. Will the unitary council level things up? Not fair to give delegated service and budget to some parish councils, whilst others have to keep performing and paying for the same service just like they did before the unitary council was created.
- Money for delegated services can only be transferred to the parish councils where it already exists in the county or district council budgets. Can't just find more money.
- Appreciate there are a lot of anomalies though. In the longer term the unitary council would look to harmonise things across the county and sort out the anomalies.
- Unitary council will also look at transferring county held assets to local ownership where appropriate – for example have play areas as local community assets.
Q. Can we have some assurance that the unitary council won't carry out any asset stripping? Will local areas keep their local assets?
- Absolutely – won't be any asset stripping.
- District Council carried out consultation that showed majority in favour of having a new city council for Salisbury. Civic treasures will stay with the city council.
Q. Concerned to hear Jane Scott's view that Wiltshire will never be a well funded county. Minister has repeatedly said that the Wiltshire unitary authority should be a flagship for the country – he should put his money where his mouth is!
- Jane Scott agrees, but Wiltshire viewed as relatively rich rural county that doesn't need a lot of funding.
- The process of unification is currently on budget – actually slightly under budget. Already starting to make savings and should continue to make savings to reach projected figures easily. Will keep everything transparent and keep everyone informed.
Q. Maiden Bradley very unhappy about boundary review. Told their area will be tied in with Warminster instead of Mere. Maiden Bradley and Mere in unique position south of Salisbury plain – belong together.
- Division only relates to areas for unitary councillors to represent. Not area boundaries for the purposes of area boards and partnerships and so on.
Q. Maiden Bradley does not belong with Warminster – no road connections between them – no common identity. Rural parish won't be represented satisfactorily by unitary councillor representing Warminster town.
- Warminster town is different – will have it's own unitary councillors. Maiden Bradley is being put together with the rural parishes to the west of Warminster town, not with Warminster town.
Q. County council acted badly – put forward proposal regarding Maiden Bradley before the parish had meeting to discuss it – shouldn't have decided before consultation. Acted high-handedly – Maiden Bradley easy target to push around.
- Not true. Were aware of Maiden Bradley's objections and did pass these objections on to the Boundary Commission.
- Boundary Commission only interested in the numbers game. Had to get figures within 10% either side of the required 3,700 figure. County council did the best it could – tried to minimise the number of angry parishes – but there are some like Maiden Bradley who are unhappy. Free to voice their own objections directly to the Boundary Commission.
Q. Putting spanner in a machinery that is running smoothly – Maiden Bradley currently working very well with its local rural partners.
- Will still be able to work together. Boundary change is only in relation to election of unitary councillors.
Q. Did very well with the community areas – couldn't the county council have stood up to the Boundary Commission and argued for boundaries based upon interests rather than just numbers?
- Boundary Commission said they were only concerned with electoral equality and numbers. If county council put forward boundary suggestions that didn't fit the figures the Boundary Commission would simply throw them out and impose their own boundaries to fit the figures.
Q. Doesn't have to be 98 unitary councillors – couldn't this number be changed so as to allow for different boundaries?
- Had to put forward a very strong argument for the 98 unitary councillors. Got to make a case and stick to it. If try to change that figure then the whole proposal would fall apart – everything has knock-on effects.
- Idea of 98 came from doubling the 49 county councillor figure. Had to stop debating and work with a reasonable figure – some counties are still stuck endlessly debating the appropriate number of unitary councillors.
Q. Boundary Commission approach is stupid – ignoring all historical and cultural ties – operating purely on numbers. Who is the Boundary Commission responsible to?
- Jane Scott's agrees it is stupid – but can't do anything about it – is what government has decreed.
- Boundary Commission is actually independent of government – only responsible to the Electoral Commission
.
Q. What happens if the population changes? If system is so sensitive to numbers how can it cope with population changes? Currently a lot of development work planned – will expand population.
- The figures were based on projections to 2012. Took the planned developments into account. If there are lots of changes that weren't predicted would have to revise it again.
Q. Is the Boundary Commission decision final? Can it be appealed? Were told that the commission would listen to fresh submissions – is that true?
- Boundary Commission will publish draft recommendations early July. Will then be a consultation period of 8 weeks on the draft recommendations. Will take the consultation into account and then produce definitive submission.
- Will listen to submissions from parishes, but only within the 10% limits!
- Experience suggests the Boundary Commission will come out with recommendations that are very different from the county council proposals anyway.
Q. What is happening with development control and planning?
- Group looking at it now. Meeting scheduled this Thursday for elected members interested in planning to get together and discuss the options.
- Currently planning works differently in the different districts. Will have to decide a single process for the unitary council, incorporating best practice from the current systems. However to begin with there will still be four different policies in place so may depend on which policy applies.
- Implementation Executive has decided there will be a minimum of 4 development committees – five or six unitary councillors on each.
Q. Will elected members still be allowed to call in any planning decisions? How will the balance be struck between having delegated decisions by officers and having elected members decide? Will parish councils still be involved like they are now? Salisbury's current system works very well – don't want to lose it. Do want longer time limits though. Concerned about losing ability to call things in – worried more will go to delegated officers who are trained and professional but don't have detailed local knowledge.
- These are all issues that will have to be discussed and worked out.
- Will still be a legal duty to consult town and parish councils.
- Will be dealing with around 10,000 applications a year so will need to find the right balance between decisions being delegated to officers and being put to members.
- Jane Scott favours a cooling off period for delegated decisions to make sure things don't slip through the net.
- Each district thinks their system is best. Some of the districts have experimented with different systems and found what works for others doesn't necessarily work for them.
- Don't yet have all the answers. Will look at the experience of other unitary authorities.
Q. There are a lot of big developments planned – lots of housebuilding – will 4 development control committees be able to cope?
- Know about the planned developments. Changes in planning legislation mean that a lot of minor planning matters that previously required planning applications won't any more. Think that the drop in applications for the minor matters might balance out the increase in other applications. Don't know for sure though – will have to see.
Q. Will there still be the local planning offices?
- Yes. Local planning offices will stay – don't want to make anything more difficult for the public to access.
Q. Should be congruence between community areas and planning areas – want to avoid having a community area split between two different planning boards.
- Agree with this.
Q. How often will the development control committees meet?
- Think it might be a monthly cycle, but will depend on a lot of things like levels of call in and delegation.
Q. Will the area boards be involved with planning decisions?
- No. Never intended to have development control decisions taken at area board level.
Q. How often will the area boards meet?
- Envisaged would have 3 or 4 meetings a year for core cycle of activity. Beyond that it would be up to the area boards themselves – some would be busier than others and need a lot more meetings.
Q. If it is only the unitary councillors who will be able to vote then from the parish councillors' point of view surely it will just be talking shop? Won't be listened to. Have been talking to county and district councillors for years without getting anywhere so how will it change?
- Unitary councillors will have to listen – if they don't then they risk being voted out next time. Wouldn't make sense for unitary councillors to ignore town and parish councillors.
- Will be running training for the unitary councillors – will be telling them what their role should be and how they should listen to town and parish councillors at the area boards. Can't guarantee quality of the unitary councillors and will need to be a shift in behaviour – but should be a change for the better.
Q. How many community areas will there be?
- Currently working on having 20. Won't be able to make final decisions until the Boundary Commission has finished their work. Will have more flexibility on the community areas than the Boundary Commission do on the electoral boundaries. May decide to merge some areas together to have 16 or 17 areas if some are too small.
Q. If there are 20 areas how many of the electorate would there be per area?
- Will be very different for different areas.
Q. Isn't this community decision making apparatus just adding yet another level of bureaucracy?
- No. Delegating real decision making powers to the community level. Area boards very different to the area committees – won't have to refer decisions back up the chain of authority all the time. They will be constrained by an agreed budget and policy – won't be able to have different education or health services - but will be able to make their own decisions about services like leisure, youth, libraries, and street scene.
Will also have the other public services like police, fire & rescue and health involved.
Q. How much money will there be for the community areas?
- There are already area budgets – wouldn't be getting more money, but would have much more influence on how that money was spent. Decide own priorities within the agreed policy and budget. Would also be community area grants for particular area projects, but these would be small amounts.
Action points arising from meeting
- Look at possibility of negotiating group insurances for councils taking on delegated services – WALC.
- Provide ball-park figures for the delegated services on the menu to help parishes decide whether or not to express an interest in taking them on.
- Consider whether it might make sense for parishes taking on delegated services to also take over responsibility for raising the money for those services through their own precept.
- Take the views from this meeting regarding planning to the meeting on Thursday.
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